Curse

JoeKnowMo · Jun 10, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

You are clearly a goal oriented player....

I am a process oriented player....

See how all the previous arguments in this thread make sense if you take into account this fundamental difference?

There are probably a small portion of players who are solely goal or process oriented. The majority of players are probably both goal and process oriented. The relative value of each (goal vs. process) can also vary over time. A player may spend time gaining Kuzick/Luxon faction (the goal) by HFFF on one day and AB or Vanquishing (the process) on another day.

In the end, overpowered skills seem to ruin things for (almost) everybody by devaluing the goal and making the process trivial.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Did A.net state that Ursan IS a problem?
If they (Anet) didn't - we can NOT say it is a problem.
(Plus - if it were - it would had probably gotten fixed. It's just too high profile to NOT get!)

Illogical.

In pretty much every case, the players are the ones who first point out a problem before Anet acknowledges that the problem exists.

If you wait for Anet to tell you where the problems lie nothing will ever get fixed.

Snow Bunny · Jun 10, 2008, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I struggle to argue the intricacies of game design with someone who clearly knows nothing of the topic.

Anet has targetted updates at balancing aspects of PvE in the past, which pretty much makes your entire point redundant.

I agree. Upier, you really don’t understand what you’re talking about. There’s a problem. Players are dissatisfied with the decisions made by ArenaNet. That is a problem.

PvP and PvE have both experienced balance. Mob scattering, SB ending after 10 attacks, Protective Bond, TNTF being toned down, etc.

I don’t believe that Anet’s own employees play their game anymore. It’s impossible that they would. If they did, they’d be equally frustrated as we are and a change would be made.

Izzy’s busy dicking around in TF2, goodness knows what Andrew Patrick is doing.

The excuse for the lack of a skill balance being, “Oh, they were sick.” If I went to the client and said, "sorry, couldn’t hand you that deposition summary, I was sick", I’d lose my job. They’ve pulled that twice now.

I have a question for ANet but it will never be answered: Why, despite the vast wealth of information and input available from the best, most able, and the most knowledgeable players of your game, did you choose to make decisions your fanbase consistently considered bizarre?

DreamWind · Jun 10, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

If we can agree that we are expecting different things from the same game, and that both expectations are equally valid because they are rooted in personality, then we are one step closer to a solution, which should be found by asking "what can be done to make both types of gamers happy?"These expectations don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I think the problem is that Anet has failed at the bolded part horribly. Instead of designing the system to make both types of players happy, they have changed the system to where both types of players piss the other off.

In reality that is a different topic altogether though. If Anet knew what they were doing, they would be able to balance their game not affecting players who don't care and making happy those who do.

Balance affects a lot more than people may realize though. I think this sums it up nicely:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

In the end, overpowered skills seem to ruin things for (almost) everybody by devaluing the goal and making the process trivial.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Did A.net state that Ursan IS a problem?
If they didn't - we can NOT say it is a problem.

Are you serious? You are giving Anet far far far FAR FAR too much credit. People who have been playing this game for years have watched every mistake Anet has made. Does that mean they are a bad company? Not neccessarily. The problem becomes when they create problems and then fail to fix the problem because they don't think its a problem.

Balance in Guild Wars is a problem. Anybody at Anet who doesn't think so is flat out wrong. Those same people working at Anet who are involved in Guild Wars 2 will be a problem when that game is released as well. I am confident in this assertion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Balance was sacrificed for an easier game design.

Finally the question has been answered. Either Anet doesn't know how to balance or doesn't care. I think we got our answer (at least from you).

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And that's the core of the issue.
Maybe the crowd you are speaking for (the "we" in your post) - isn't big enough to matter?

The millions of people who bought Guild Wars aren't big enough to matter? All of those millions of people have now been lied to because things advertised on the box are gone. Whether or not those millions bought the game for those reasons is irrelevent. The consumer is being lied to. That is one of the things at the heart of the issue that has yet to be refuted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Personally, I can choose NOT to use Ursan (because I don't shapeshift into a bear and I don't like it! (And I kid you not!)) - and let the poor suckers who aren't good enough at this game to have their fun! I don't need to play with them - so it doesn't matter how badly they suck!

I would post the "aw geez not this shit again" picture, but I don't want my post to get deleted.

upier · Jun 10, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I struggle to argue the intricacies of game design with someone who clearly knows nothing of the topic.

Anet has targetted updates at balancing aspects of PvE in the past, which pretty much makes your entire point redundant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I agree. Upier, you really don’t understand what you’re talking about. There’s a problem. Players are dissatisfied with the decisions made by ArenaNet. That is a problem.

PvP and PvE have both experienced balance. Mob scattering, SB ending after 10 attacks, Protective Bond, TNTF being toned down, etc.

You add something that is (supposedly) balanced into a completely unbalanced game.
Does that mean that the game is now balanced?

The game would need to be COMPLETELY trashed and rebuild if we'd want to come even close to some sort of a balance. And balancing JUST the player - won't do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Okay, give me a skill that makes me invincible for 3600 seconds (1 hour), recharge 1 second, 1 energy cost and make it a Skill with 0 cast time. And make it give me 50 energy every time something tries to hit me or cast a spell or do anything, even move. And I want instant-recharge of all skills every time I look at the screen. And 200 ecto stacks from each mob.

Or ... you know what we could do?
We could make all the players invincible to any damage (outside of life-stealing) unless the mobs drops some sort of a bomb before our feet.
Wouldn't THAT be fun?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Illogical.

In pretty much every case, the players are the ones who first point out a problem before Anet acknowledges that the problem exists.

If you wait for Anet to tell you where the problems lie nothing will ever get fixed.

Bolded the important part.
Before that - it's just a potential problem.

Bryant Again · Jun 10, 2008, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You add something that is (supposedly) balanced into a completely unbalanced game.
Does that mean that the game is now balanced?

Depends on how the game was "unbalanced" to begin with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The game would need to be COMPLETELY trashed and rebuild if we'd want to come even close to some sort of a balance. And balancing JUST the player - won't do that.

Unless you come up with some of the most sophisticated AI in the world, you would never be able to achieve balance in PvE. So you compensate, and this is what's happened with most games to this date - and it's come to many of their benefit.

But granted, there is a different kind of balance to achieve; the balance that concerns player difficultly and skill against all of these preset challenges.

Snow Bunny · Jun 10, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Bolded the important part.
Before that - it's just a potential problem.

Upier - there's a problem. It's not fun anymore.

Just because ANet doesn't admit it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It's called denial.

Stop defending some of the most terrible marketing decisions I've ever seen. If this game were Pay-to-Play, Guild Wars would have lost most subscribers by now.

Mad King Corn · Jun 10, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

It's people like you who caused the divide between PvE and PvP players.

That was the best decision that anet has ever made, that should have been done at the start of Guild Wars. Because of the divide, myself and many others are finally going to be able to enjoy Guild Wars the way we like to play it. Some of us are handicapped and/or do not posess the skill to do some of the harder areas / missions and this split and PVE skills evens the playing field.
Until the split, I lost faith in Anet, it is now restored and it proves that they care about ALL players, not just the elite or the PVP players. To me, that means alot and says alot for Anet. Best business decision on their part ever!

Tyla · Jun 10, 2008, 06:52 PM // 18:52

If Anet cares about all players, why are skill balances so late and so crap, and why does Ursan exist?

Please note, I, like many others who play PvE, liked skill balances as it forced me off a build I was playing if it got hit, it gave me more options... there's many reasons.

Clarissa F · Jun 10, 2008, 07:02 PM // 19:02

^^Also, with the balances you could get a skill that was useless before adjusted to where it had viability in a new build. It encouraged THINKING. Hmmm...

upier · Jun 10, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Depends on how the game was "unbalanced" to begin with.

Well we can start with the fact that we are using skill that were balanced for PvP rules (stuff like - rules about max hp, energy regen, hp regen, environmental rules) and that those rules do not apply in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Unless you come up with some of the most sophisticated AI in the world, you would never be able to achieve balance in PvE. So you compensate, and this is what's happened with most games to this date - and it's come to many of their benefit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Finally the question has been answered. Either Anet doesn't know how to balance or doesn't care. I think we got our answer (at least from you).

So why is it so hard to accept that "something being unbalanced in PvE" isn't good enough reason for a change?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The millions of people who bought Guild Wars aren't big enough to matter? All of those millions of people have now been lied to because things advertised on the box are gone. Whether or not those millions bought the game for those reasons is irrelevent. The consumer is being lied to. That is one of the things at the heart of the issue that has yet to be refuted.

If you look at the box - I think it says something like: "the gaming experience may change".
It also states that A.Net has the right to change the game whenever and however they want.

Plus there is the issue of how many people actually dislike the change.

And because GW is a product that needs to be sold - I am guessing they are trying to appeal to an audience as wide as possible.
Just because certain people on this forum dislike the game - doesn't mean all people do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Upier - there's a problem. It's not fun anymore.

Just because ANet doesn't admit it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It's called denial.

Stop defending some of the most terrible marketing decisions I've ever seen. If this game were Pay-to-Play, Guild Wars would have lost most subscribers by now.

But ... I am NOT defending them.
But no matter what we say won't change the fact that A.Net NEEDS to classify something as a problem in order for it to change.
But before they change something - they weight the pro's and con's.
And the PRO to change Ursan is balance.
Something that they don't really care about.
The PRO would also be that the the veteran players are pissed.
But by changing they risk pissing off an insanely larger pool of players that AREN'T as good as the veterans.

Show me the money, anyone?

Edit:
Sorry - bitching with WAAAY to many people to not miss something: :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

In the end, overpowered skills seem to ruin things for (almost) everybody by devaluing the goal and making the process trivial.

So ... what goals in PvE have non-personal value?
I thought that in the great "PvP-er RULE and PvE-er SUCK!11!"-time we already established that anything done in PvE has no value.

Snow Bunny · Jun 10, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

The 'nerf ursan would cause people to quit' theory doesn't work.

People played this game for 2.5+ years before Ursan.

Bryant Again · Jun 10, 2008, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Well we can start with the fact that we are using skill that were balanced for PvP rules (stuff like - rules about max hp, energy regen, hp regen, environmental rules) and that those rules do not apply in PvE.

And why don't they apply to PvE? Just because of the monsters?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So why is it so hard to accept that "something being unbalanced in PvE" isn't good enough reason for a change?

Because that's not all of the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If you look at the box - I think it says something like: "the gaming experience may change"...

Previously, "gaming experience may change during online play" is related to ESRB not being responsible for the social interactions that you experience during online play. Recently this was to change to confusion about game updates and the like.

You are right, however, that online games are never definite. But just because ANet has the ability and right to do a complete u-turn from their game direction doesn't mean they should, most especially since it's one of the few things pertaining to GW's success.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

*snip*...And the PRO to change Ursan is balance.
Something that they don't really care about...

...Which is what they've shown *through* Ursan, hence why many want it to cease to exist.

upier · Jun 10, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

The 'nerf ursan would cause people to quit' theory doesn't work.

People played this game for 2.5+ years before Ursan.

The players who played for 2.5+ years before Ursan are the veterans.
How about players that haven't played for that long?
Or how about the players that did - but just suck?

So .. how do you keep them interested in a game (or better yet - interested in buying things that they don't have yet) - if they can't play it because of the moronic game design decisions? Where they would have to waste more time to learn how to play a game then the game has left before GW2 comes out?

Bryant Again · Jun 10, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So .. how do you keep them interested in a game (or better yet - interested in buying things that they don't have yet) - if they can't play it because of the moronic game design decisions? Where they would have to waste more time to learn how to play a game then the game has left before GW2 comes out?

Here's an idea: Reduce the difficulty of normal mode so "inexperienced" players can see the content. This way both parties are happy, since people can see the areas and the challenge remains in Hard Mode. This was a solid idea they went through with DoA, with it's Normal Mode being drastically easier.

upier · Jun 10, 2008, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And why don't they apply to PvE? Just because of the monsters?

Of course.
Take something like e-denial.
E-denial skills are balanced on the fact that players have an energy regen value of 2-4.
In PvE - those numbers do not apply.
Those skills are unbalanced by default.

But like previously stated - but if the this unbalance is an answer to the fact that the AI sucks - then balance doesn't matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Because that's not all of the problem.

Actually - if balance doesn't matter - then "being unbalanced" isn't even PART of the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

...Which is what they've shown *through* Ursan, hence why many want it to cease to exist.

Wouldn't that be just the half-assed solution that we've seen so many in our playtime?
The fact that PvE skills require no attribute investment is completely and utterly against the basic premise of GW.
Ursan is just as broken as Winds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Here's an idea: Reduce the difficulty of normal mode so "inexperienced" players can see the content. This way both parties are happy, since people can see the areas and the challenge remains in Hard Mode. This was a solid idea they went through with DoA, with it's Normal Mode being drastically easier.

Superb idea!
But like I've said before - this idea ISN'T part of the "Nerf Ursan!".
This would require trashing PvE and re-building it.
(Or they could just make all the foes follow the same rules as the players. No immunity to KDs, normal HP/energy regen rates, no natural resistance, .... The simple fact that the player can think should make the game easy enough to still come through with the basic point of PvE which is that the player needs to win!)

And we KNOW they won't do this. Because it's not easy.

Snow Bunny · Jun 10, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Upier, it's humans vs. very poorly designed AI.

The PvE monsters need all the help they can get.

Bryant Again · Jun 10, 2008, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Of course.
Take something like e-denial.
E-denial skills are balanced on the fact that players have an energy regen value of 2-4.
In PvE - those numbers do not apply.
Those skills are unbalanced by default.

That is not a problem with PvE, that is a problem with Mesmers. I agree fully that Mesmers have a difficult time in PvE, and that should've been addressed long ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

But like previously stated - but if the this unbalance is an answer to the fact that the AI sucks - then balance doesn't matter.

Let me give you an example: God of War. On God Mode, everything is imbalanced as hell. Most bad guys can kill you in just a couple of hits while said bad guy could take a couple hundred. Not to mention that you were always outnumbered, save for boss fights (which in fact weren't really fair, either. *%(# you, minotaur!). Now, did I complain about this? No, because I'm a human. I am *smart*. I am going against an AI. I don't need overpowered shit to beat overpowered and horribly stupid shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Wouldn't that be just the half-assed solution that we've seen so many in our playtime?
The fact that PvE skills require no attribute investment is completely and utterly against the basic premise of GW.
Ursan is just as broken as Winds.

Who said I'm not against PvE skills?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Superb idea!
But like I've said before - this idea ISN'T part of the "Nerf Ursan!".

It involves Ursan because, with my idea in place, there wouldn't *be* a need for Ursan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And we KNOW they won't do this. Because it's not easy.

Turn the difficulty of a high-end area on Normal mode relative to that of something a bit easier (example: making normal mode Urgoz as challenging as the Jade Sea)? What's so hard about that? Not to mention that they already did it in DoA, so ANet showed it could be done.

Melody Cross · Jun 10, 2008, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

If Anet cares about all players, why are skill balances so late and so crap, and why does Ursan exist?

Please note, I, like many others who play PvE, liked skill balances as it forced me off a build I was playing if it got hit, it gave me more options... there's many reasons.

There we go. The core of the issue.

PvE skills were placed in the game because many professions were not playing to their potential. The ability to have synergy with other professions and skills had created builds that were nerfed by Anet to maintain PvP integrity.

For this reason, while I disliked Ursan, I understood its benefits. It allows players to play the character they want, get their HoM set up effectivly and finish their main. It is immune to PvP skill nerfs, so there will always be a build any character can play in PvE. You can H/H the game without beating your head against a door of overpowered monsters. Or you can team up and take on vanquishing with any toon.

However, when massed together, Ursans are imba. Its--apparently or Anet might have done so by now--difficult under the current engine to nerf Ursanway and maintain the original concept of the elite in the first place (one skill any one can use to work on their main).

So we got overpowered skills in the game. And, despite complaints, Anet probably felt confident in leaving them there.

But now we've got something new. Whether we asked for it or not, whether we wanted it or not, we now have in our possession a way to clean the PvE slate. No longer must PvE play "suffer" under PvP balances. Anything that gets nerfed for a PvP reason does not have to be from a PvE one, and skills that were skillkilled can be readjusted to run effectively. One example is the OP and Ether Renewal.

I and other people are trying to make lemonade out of this...mess Anet has dropped on our heads. Skills can be buffed to pre-nerf levels without destroying PvE balance; they can be geared to make all professions effective, and multitudes of builds can come about for each class.

Monks can have their boonprot back. Eles can SFway if they choose, Rit Lord can be buffed again, Shadowstepping can turn sins away from being farmers and 1-build wonders and paragons can afford to run effective passive prot beyond TNTF builds. Skills that never say the light of day in serious play can be expierimented with, perhaps even enter PvP if they proove not to be the most overpowered trash ever to exist.

This is what the people who don't like ER in its current state appear to be asking for. I--and I believe they--feel that overbuffing something is as bad for the game as overnerfing it. Balance is good. Imba is not. Imab gets boring; imba gets things done too easily, too quickly, and by too many people who suck at the game and have no desire to improve themselves in it, only to have Anet hand them another easy button. It takes away from our achievement the same way scripts take away from cartographers.

Like I said back on page 25: there was a time when many people looked at other dolls/toons and said "whatever; i don't want to waste my play time getting something that will only make me look pretty". Those people did without, and were happy to. Now, everyone wants everything, and they can get it. My view: if you suck at this game and don't want to get better, you don't deserve a torment shield. You didn't earn it; you just easy buttoned for an hour.

And you know you didn't too. proponents against balance keep bouncing back and forth between "these skills aren't overpowered" to "whats wrong with these skills being overpowered?" Often in the same damn post. You know they're imbalanced, you don't care about game integrity, you just want your damn easy button so you can get your shit. balance be damned so long as I get my stuff without putting forth effort.

When you take away the "Anet thinks its okay" argument (and take it away because its BS; they haven't come out and said what they think one way or another), the "Multitude must love this because they are not leaving en masse" drivel (which is drivel because people are leaving), thats the real argument behind wanting ER and other imbalances left in PvE or added to.

Balance be damned, I want "my" stuff. I say dust off your Playstation, break out your game shark and GTFO of my online game. You're screwing it up.

GGs

EDIT: sorry if I come off a little heavyhanded, but I'm getting sick of people reposting the same questions like a two-year-old pouting why why why why why why why why thinking that if they just keep asking we'll either give up or run out of answers.

Tyla · Jun 10, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

sorry if I come off a little heavyhanded, but I'm getting sick of people reposting the same questions like a two-year-old pouting why why why why why why why why thinking that if they just keep asking we'll either give up or run out of answers.

No problem, but it was directed at the person above me.

If Anet did care, they wouldn't of created this skill and it's as simple as that.

Bryant Again · Jun 10, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

While in itself an in-depth and concise post, I want to bring up this portion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

When you take away the "Anet thinks its okay" argument (and take it away because its BS; they haven't come out and said what they think one way or another), the "Multitude must love this because they are not leaving en masse" drivel (which is drivel because people are leaving), thats the real argument behind wanting ER and other imbalances left in PvE or added to.

People aren't leaving "en masse" because the general populous doesn't care.

A good friend of mine in WoW says this about the casual player: "They could give less of a shit", and that's very true. This applies to everything: armor, elite areas, nerfs, buffs.